z00ey
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return is the movement of sense..
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Post by z00ey on Dec 15, 2003 18:23:18 GMT -5
"at the same time waiting arround doing nothing locked in arguments for three years never did any good." ..there has been progress, things were not just locked (yes, there was no solution at all - but there was progress).
"and i am sure it is the same in europe that the media shows views that are to their own liking making people like z00ey Fook and duke. your not wrong at all but the media has shaped your view." believe me i dig as much as i can (yes, information-yunkee).. ..and the european media is just a part of it (my main source is worldwide newspapers , i would say about 70%.. ..20% net (yes, the net is 90% crap itself.. ..but the 10% _real_ information is worth to search for) ..and maybe like 10% zombie propaganda media like television worldwide (tv is too dependet on either money or politic.. ..and it has become too much like fastfood because of that: the worst source for _real_ information).
the only opinion i stated is that i think bush and his administration did a big mistake - but the reasons for my thinking are facts; let me give a few examplesbr]
UN must be able to monitor WoMs (weapons of mass destruction): obviously a good thing, usa are and were the loudest when asking for it.. still they are the only so called "first world nation" that claims not to be part of this rule.
The US has in its stockpiles more nuclear bombs, chemical and biological weapons, more aircraft, rockets and delivery systems in number and sophistication than the rest of the world combined.
The US are the only nation worldwide that has used nuclear bombs / munition actively (not tests only) and though the only who even used them against civilians.
US has attempted to assassinate several heads of state. US have supports foreign terrorists. (nicaragua, to take an example away from asia/middle east) (both last points are well and open documented inbetween..)
..and now back to topic a bit more: worldwide (us scientists/services too) the opinion is that saddam hussein never had anything to do with bin laden or any other terrorists that attacked the usa.
there are and were more (even worse) dictators/systems on this planet than saddam/iraq.
now remeber the reasons bush gave for the war.. ..and now just think what billions of ppl on the planet thought, knowing all or some of these things.. ..and keep in mind that even IF any of the reasons bush gave for the war WOULD have been true and would have COME true (nothing found still..), IF u gave those reasons AND use words like "cruisade" , "god is with us" ..or obviously lie (saddam was a direct threat for the usa) just to make the ppl goto war or agree with it THEN think about how the rest of the world understands it - and much more important.. ..about the consequenses.
"its just that most americans don't want to see their own mistakes (so do u) .. without america, UN would be nothing, without america, we wouldn't be travelling space, without america, world war 2 would have gone on forever, withou..." duke (offtopic a bit but i cannot resist ;p)br]i want to see my mistakes. ..and again: don t ask what the UN would be without america (i assume you mean the US when you say america, which is a slight difference btw ;p).. just ask: what would the world would be without the UN. ..and: your little causality-chain does not work like that, you never can argue like that (this would not if that ..etc..) , well at least not if you pick that diff things in a that long range, so i type a last paragraph to exploit your logic: (btw, us were not the first who went to space, and nasa and the pre-organisation within the air force were mainly put together by "foreign" scientists.. ..eg wernherr von braun and his crew who developed the basics in europe;; another nice example of ratfaced behaviour btw: all ppl that were "of use" have been assimilated as if there were nothing, the rest was judged.. ..but i am drifting away from topic..)
..back to the exploit =D: without world war2 those scientists would never have reached the usa and though they never would have traveled to space that fast
anyhoo, i d like to finish with thisbr]i could do similar posts for many other countries who did a lot of crap too.. ..just not topic right and these days (decades) it seems that it s the US of a's turn to make the worst (like other countries have done in other times).
i ll leave you with a quote and a link..
"There is an undeniable arrogance, hubris is perhaps a better word, in the statements of many who seem to feel we Americans have a divinely sanctioned right to change governments of any country who we find obnoxious. We choose now to do this militarily, and this has untold consequences in Iraq, the region, and the world. We cannot wage war pre-emptively and expect the rest of humanity to lick our boots. How would you feel? Please think about this." (notice the "we", that bud is us-american too).
and the link would bebr]www.stallman.org/ ..just be cause i like the way he defines patriotism, like a LOT of us-americans actually do (i hate it when some ppl in europe act as if 99% would follow bush into hell).
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Post by Ohio on Dec 15, 2003 18:38:49 GMT -5
Duke, I would like to see another country that produces as much as the US and have lower emission levels. Your emission reports are based soley on population but you forget that the US is largest industrialized nation and yet are emmisions are lower than china, but I don't hear you crying about china. It seems to me that the rest of the world wants someone to blame for other countries failures and shortcomings, why does the blame always have to fall on the US? And Cin, it is love of money that is the root of all evil. If the US loved it so much, we would keep all to ourselves and tell the rest of the world to tick off. Yet we do not, so show me a country that provides more in foreign aide to other countries, you can't. Show me a country whose people provide more in humanitarian aide than charities funded by US citizens with no govenment ties what so ever, you can't. When did the people of the United states or their leaders ever turn up their nose and claim we were better than everyone else? Never happened. So get off the propaganda rubbish. Stop attacking me and my fellow citizens, our leaders and the land that I hold dear because you view evil as prosperity. The United states and its people fought hard and worked harder to become a free and prosperous nation, we prevailed against great odds. And yet other countries hate us because we do not do the same for them. They expect a hand out. Well fight for it and work for it like we did.
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z00ey
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return is the movement of sense..
Posts: 2,309
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Post by z00ey on Dec 15, 2003 19:33:02 GMT -5
"Duke, I would like to see another country that produces as much as the US and have lower emission levels. Your emission reports are based soley on population but you forget that the US is largest industrialized nation and yet are emmisions are lower than china, but I don't hear you crying about china." in percetage: nearly every nation on the same level of civilisation(industrialization).. ..if we include russia (since it is a g7 state too now, for political reasons) it would be three. if it is _not_ like that: hell why didn t bush sign kyoto ?
and even _bacause there are like 5 times more ppl in china (on much less space (relatively calculated)).. ..and btw, i cried about china even in this thread and i will go on worrying about china.
"If the US loved it so much, we would keep all to ourselves and tell the rest of the world to tick off." no im/export.. uh uh.. i doubt that it will work. btw: 1/3 of the money invested in the usa comes from europe.. ..and assume that there is a large amount of money that comes from other places in the world ..i doubt it even more. just that you think it might work is an example of that kinda hubris (quote last post) that us-american is talking about.
"Yet we do not, so show me a country that provides more in foreign aide to other countries, you can't. Show me a country whose people provide more in humanitarian aide than charities funded by US citizens with no govenment ties what so ever, you can't." well.. look at percentages, which makes _much_ more sensebr]usa spends like 0,4% from their budget/year.. ..now let me ask back: show me a land (same level, "first world") who pays only 0,4% or less ?
" Show me a country whose people provide more in humanitarian aide than charities funded by US citizens with no govenment ties what so ever, you can't." see it like this: the governments seem to be too busy caring for the rest of the world that they forgot (for a long time) to care for a sensible politic inside the own country (like clinton attempted).. ..or in other words: it s the only way left to avoid chaos cause the government are just not able to care for their citizens by thereselfs.
"When did the people of the United states or their leaders ever turn up their nose and claim we were better than everyone else? Never happened." just happened twice in your post i am quoting of right now: 'could live alone on same level and say tick off' ,which is just not true.. and the 'we pay more than others so..'-attitude (may it be UN or 3rd world aid...) which is just not true too (you cannot compare absolute numbers.. ..finland for example pays more than ten times in percent of their yearly budget.
" The United states and its people fought hard and worked harder to become a free and prosperous nation, we prevailed against great odds." all americans i know who think the same like i do owuld say the same as i dobr]it is a shame that bush damages all the usa stood for and what they have achieved and was adored by many ppl in the world.
"So get off the propaganda rubbish."
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Post by Cope on Dec 15, 2003 19:49:52 GMT -5
I think this thread reached retarded level a few pages back. Ill join my handicap brothers. Bush is the president of our country. He himself does not run our country. He is the figure head. Yeah he makes choices here and there. What about when we had a chance to get Saddam in 98(i think) and the world did want us to do something and Clinton tossed a couple sticks at him and nothing more? Now the worlds ticked of we go after him.... 2+2 does not always equal 4 in the world, but polar oppisites after a change when we have another republican in office? thats stupid. America has been ticking off the world way before pres Bush has been in office. Just he/his administration/congress are not taking peoples crap anymore. Showing a spin in office doesnt hurt. Might be. But guess what. In less than 2 years he may no longer be pres and then what will the issue be? still bush? About us being the only one that has ever used nuclear weapons...well thats true....kind of what happens when we bring it upon this world. Yeah some of the people in the Manhattan project were not all Born US citizens....we still have open borders...different type of country. we have people from all kinds in this nation time to punhc back in and work . lata
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z00ey
New Member
return is the movement of sense..
Posts: 2,309
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Post by z00ey on Dec 15, 2003 20:03:05 GMT -5
"But guess what. In less than 2 years he may no longer be pres and then what will the issue be? still bush?"
if there was an UNDO function of any kind for all the things he and his followers messed up i wouldn t give a sh|t about him (i would be like "deal with it, it only your country he messes up and you voted him - well the minority of ppl, but election system allows it like that unfortunatly - and even more unfortunalty ..he (and his etc..) messed up the planet we are all living on).
ps.. ..just went back to the link i posted in some other post.. ..and found a nice statistic while researching somehting: the higher the education level the less ppl vote pro-bush ...but just a statistic, no offense, i am (unfortunatly again) sure that there are still many well educated ppl who voted him ;x
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Post by Cope on Dec 15, 2003 21:32:56 GMT -5
very interesting study I found xtmembers.com/bush/I didnt believe it but says from major colleges. gotta be true.
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Post by Ohio on Dec 15, 2003 22:23:33 GMT -5
Its funny how you can always find a source to prove your side of the story, to bad the truth usually lies somewhere inbetween. But z00ey, I would love to see the sources for your statistics, they sound like a BCS poll.
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Cin
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Post by Cin on Dec 16, 2003 1:44:04 GMT -5
Its funny when you actually realised what z00ey was true (all that 'propoganda' you like to call it), you then had to call the statistics false, good one . It feels as though America is leading this world, dictating the world, what kind of place is that to live in. "Which is the only country, in the history of this world, benifitted from wars? America. Had ther been no world wars, america would never be a super power. It was a tribal place before that. the only two things which helped america develop were that they had almost free labour available (slaves from africa) and that wars were never fought on its territory although it was suppling weapons to both, england and germany during both the world wars." This also makes some good reading - www.michaelmoore.com/words/index.php but i suppose its just more 'lies' and 'propaganda' Oh how times change
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Post by Cope on Dec 16, 2003 1:50:46 GMT -5
Yeah I guess youre right. The US news in the only one on the face of this planet that stretches the truth. Every other worldy source is telling the absolute truth all times. d**n those flowerchilds at FOX rofl about your Michael Moore link. A guy that does nothing but make money of making you feel like you might have done something wrong by electing Bush. Waah. Hes old news.
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Cin
New Member
Posts: 75
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Post by Cin on Dec 16, 2003 1:52:43 GMT -5
hey, i thought american intelligence relied on cnn !
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Post by Cope on Dec 16, 2003 1:55:24 GMT -5
congrats on finding a picture there. oh how the times have changed
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Cin
New Member
Posts: 75
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Post by Cin on Dec 16, 2003 1:56:54 GMT -5
Difference being my picture was about 20 years ago
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Post by Duke Tosti on Dec 16, 2003 3:38:28 GMT -5
maybe cope's was drawn only 10 years ago ... glad this discussion didn't went to over 10 pages, only 6 ... otherwise I had to read all of them in order to get up not only the US needs to look in a mirror, there are more countries screwing things up, but because the US is such a big country, their actions have most of the times a bigger impact than those of others, it's a responsibility
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Cin
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Post by Cin on Dec 16, 2003 6:31:50 GMT -5
You got it spot on there Duke in that last paragraph.
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Post by Freak on Dec 16, 2003 6:40:56 GMT -5
"Which is the only country, in the history of this world, benifitted from wars? America. Had ther been no world wars, america would never be a super power. It was a tribal place before that. the only two things which helped america develop were that they had almost free labour available (slaves from africa) and that wars were never fought on its territory although it was suppling weapons to both, england and germany during both the world wars."
every country that has gone to war and won has beniffited from it. france wouldn't have been an empire without napolions conquest. or the british empire.
slaves did not make this nation a super power. slavery was gone long before the us had any say in world events or even could have been called a super power (WWI). the americans supplied those who asked. until an aliance was made against us which then we started supplying only to france and england. degual who was french based in london is only reason for that.
your comment about us intelligence being based on cnn was a cheap shot and just plain retarded. countries like England and Germany rely heavily on American equipment and intelligence for their own intelligence agencies.
and to put the flowering world war crap to rest about how the war would have gone on if the US didn't step in. thats simply not true since the US did not win WWII it only helped. Russia marched on berlin and without the Americans touching that war Russia would have ended it the same
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