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Post by Draconis on Dec 15, 2003 12:41:51 GMT -5
Anyone wonder why no one bothered to aprehend Saddam 20 years ago when the U.S. was basically kissing his ass? Lets review... some 23 years ago, Saddam donated a large sum of money to some Churches in the States... totalling approximately $250,000. In exchange, he was awarded the Key to the City Of Detroit. He was labelled as a kind person, caring for other people, and was considered to be extremely generous. Why did no one say anything about his war crimes then? Anyone else get the nagging suspicion that a person is only evil when it suits the agenda for the country? Are people implying that Saddam and Iraq did not have any WMD then? That people were not drug into the streets and beaten/raped/killed? Or is there more to it than that... looking for something physical to blame the attacks in New York on (since lets face it, the Bin Laden quest was a massive failure thus far). I've seen some comments made over the past few months that say that Saddam is partly responsible for the WTC attacks... but this is based on hearsay, or actual solid proof? Yes, it's a great thing that he has finally been caught... but I have to wonder why they waited so long in the first place.
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Post by Ohio on Dec 15, 2003 12:43:38 GMT -5
But what your reading is someone's opinion of how they think Bush cares about the environment. It is not factual, it is an opinion under the guise of news. The sad thing about reporters and the media, is they are not dedicated to providing unbiased information, instead they spin facts with opinion to paint the picture they want.
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z00ey
New Member
return is the movement of sense..
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Post by z00ey on Dec 15, 2003 12:46:43 GMT -5
"As for past presidents supporting Iraq, sometimes z00ey, the enemy of your enemy is your friend." exactly that is the politic that leads to anything but a safer place (history can prove that easily). make the friends of your enemies to your friends.. ..offer them what you can give (no revolution from that came from above ever worked.. ..french revolution, revolution in russia (1917 and the newest one, about which i can t say yet if it worked at all, let s see, lol) or even the peaceful revolution that happened in east-germany all worked for ONE reason: the ppl made them, the ppl were wanting another form of living together, another system..).
the world is not a muppet theater where you can simply replace some ppl, force some things and all will be fine, i wish it would be.
"There was no support to Iraq form either of the Bushes." officialy (politically) right.. ..but then no other country ever supported saddam.. ..because in fact there was a lot of buisiness and economical support under the bush administrations, i assumed we included that form of support (afghanistan and iraq).
"We do not have a crystal ball to tell the future,..." no , we do not have.. ..actually there was one newspaper worldwide (as far as i know) that wrote exactly what would happen in afghanistan (which you could imagine, indeed): the Neue Züricher Zeitung. funny sitenote: a human rights organisation demonstrated and went to law in california against some oil companies (bush and chaney were managers) because they made biz with the taliban (about which they thought they don t care for any human rights and should not be supported) and got smashed.. all in all.. ..we don t have a crystal ball but funny that some ppl seem to think deeper or in a longer distance .. ...or just have luck, ok, lol..
"But lets not forget, without Reagan, there would still be a wall running through the middle of you country, but of course I am sure the germans do not see it that way at all." at least i don t see it that way - but there are actually other opinions (same ppl would have said kennedy should have attacked cuba when the ussr placed nuclear bombs there back in that days, i m sure).
comparing saddam and hitler doesn t make any sense to me.. ..and i don t see a proper way of doing it - just that: hitler was that bad (for the whole planet) that i just would not compare him anyway..
..and that is not the point at all btw: saddam was bad, everyone agreed.. ..still would have been better to go the UN way without the war.
it is just impossible just to start wars against every bad dictator on this planet (there are a lot saddams.. ;\).
and aslong as one "mighty" nation just decides what they think is the best there will be more dictators, regimes we don t want than less ("un and all it stood for is not worth anything, why should we care for all it stood for then..").
a view in my crystal ball: 70% in iraq are muslims .. ..the same 70% majority of the population had the most problems and were supressed most by saddam hussein, who was supported by the minority (about 10% catholics even, lol).. ..the ppl who are pushed into power now come out of that 30% because the usa fears another mighty muslim state in that area.....
the 70% shiiten that were against saddam are now against the usa (simply because bush senior promised them to support them in iraq war1 and he did not, so the shiiten (not sure about the english word, lol) were hunted down and tortured even worse after they decided to stand up against saddam in iraqw1 AND because they wanted free elections after iraqw2, which for sure won t happen too soon because usa does not want a muslim system - and guess what would happen after free lections when 70% of the population is muslim)... ..well.. draw your own conclusions, my crystal ball says things are getting worse.
all in all i m sure the longer way would have been much shorter at the end,, ,,the war was not just "illegal" it was senseless and not useful (from nearly all points of view.. ..i am excluding economic interestests allthough i am not saying that it was the main reason for the war.. ..maybe it was just a very bad desicion).
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z00ey
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return is the movement of sense..
Posts: 2,309
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Post by z00ey on Dec 15, 2003 12:54:19 GMT -5
Anyone wonder why no one bothered to aprehend Saddam 20 years ago when the U.S. was basically kissing his ass? Lets review... some 23 years ago, Saddam donated a large sum of money to some Churches in the States... totalling approximately $250,000. In exchange, he was awarded the Key to the City Of Detroit. He was labelled as a kind person, caring for other people, and was considered to be extremely generous. Why did no one say anything about his war crimes then? Anyone else get the nagging suspicion that a person is only evil when it suits the agenda for the country? Are people implying that Saddam and Iraq did not have any WMD then? That people were not drug into the streets and beaten/raped/killed? Or is there more to it than that... looking for something physical to blame the attacks in New York on (since lets face it, the Bin Laden quest was a massive failure thus far). I've seen some comments made over the past few months that say that Saddam is partly responsible for the WTC attacks... but this is based on hearsay, or actual solid proof? Yes, it's a great thing that he has finally been caught... but I have to wonder why they waited so long in the first place. indeed !
and what really bothers me that we didn t learn anything it seems.. just one of thousands examples that comes into my mindbr]we all know that china is still torturing ppl (imprisoning all who try to form any kind of oppostion, censorship like hell.. etc etc etc etc...)... BUT.. germany (chancelor and some industry manager) just returned from a trip there and were so glad about the talks.. ..not a single word about all the mentioned above.. because: there is the hugest market on this planet to explore ("let s sell one billion cars, woohoo, let s sell... bleh bleh bleh")..
..such a shame (one outta a million).
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Post by Ohio on Dec 15, 2003 13:06:53 GMT -5
z00ey, I don't even know where to start, some of what you say is opinion reported as fact, misinformation and some of it completely false. There was a standoff with the USSR of the coast of cuba. The USSR ships carrying the nukes turned around and went home. The shiites did not want free elections, the shiites wanted tribal elections. Where do you get that the US does not want another muslim state? Are you saying that because we do not want or effort to be in vane and watch Iraq become another dictatorship like most other muslim countries that we do not want a muslim country. In the US we seperate religion from politics. We could care less what their religion is, we just don't want to see it fall in the hands of another dictator or suppresionist. And as for doing it the UN's way, they had 10 years to do it their way, they did nothing but make more resolutions which were repeatedly broken. So please enlighten me to what there way was. Was it a slow painful death by papercuts from all the resolutions and lack of real action? The UN is nothing but a self serving organization. The US is the largest contributer of money and resources to the UN. What would the UN be without the US? A group of self-rightous whiners with no money and no power to do anything.
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z00ey
New Member
return is the movement of sense..
Posts: 2,309
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Post by z00ey on Dec 15, 2003 13:31:22 GMT -5
"There was a standoff with the USSR of the coast of cuba. The USSR ships carrying the nukes turned around and went home." allthough it s not the point (the point was that kennedy was right in my opinion and those ppl who supported reagen would have supported the lots of ppl that days that thought different as kennedy, in my opinion again)br]there _have_ been nuclear weapons on cuba allready.. that s how the whole thing started, the usa discovered them kennedy had to decide how to go on.. ..rest is history.
"The shiites did not want free elections, the shiites wanted tribal elections." same thing in this case.. ..or aren t the president elections in america not free because there are actually vote-men voting who are voted by the ppl.. ?
"Where do you get that the US does not want another muslim state?" it s obvious.. ..simply because there are not even plans for a free election (same as in afghanistan: a good crystal ball for iraq btw.. ..look what is happening there, outside of kabul everything is nearly the same again like it s been before,, well a few thousand ppl less and a few soldiers more who can t really do anything against it).
"In the US we seperate religion from politics." you might know that i enjoy discussions like these and talking to you on this forum so i am pretty sure that you actually do.. ..but talking about my friend bush and his followers: have fun on your "cruisade against terror ,may god be eith us" (quote bush).
"The US is the largest contributer of money and resources to the UN. What would the UN be without the US?" sorry, but no nation owes the UN more money than the usa does (maybe you were right if they WOULD have paid anything at all).
"What would the UN be without the US? A group of self-rightous whiners with no money and no power to do anything." i don t know.. ..all i know is that the UN was the best idea that ever was realized on this planet. sure it could work better.. ..but that for sure was not a good reason to drop all it stood for.
it s simply a desicion like : "roman empire model or UN".. ..and i m sure the second choice is much better for all in the long run.
btw.. ..it s not that the USA is united and backing you up, ohio.. ..the much wiser question for me would have been: "what would the UN be (now) without bush ?".
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Cin
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Post by Cin on Dec 15, 2003 14:18:26 GMT -5
"As many billions of dollars the US gives in support to the rest of the world" You may have alot of it, but purely throwing money at something doesnt solve problems. "So countries like France, Germany and Russia could hide the fact that they were violating UN resolutions by selling arms to Iraq" LMFAO Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! lol! "there is a law z00ey. and it is not right to use it in this case" What the point of a law when you choose when you want to abide by it? "Saddam was more of a Murderous dictator than Adloph Hitler." He was worse than Saddam, in his time. "Are people implying that Saddam and Iraq did not have any WMD then?" He doesnt. If he does, show us? "The US is the largest contributer of money and resources to the UN." lmao, throw your money at it and think you own it? money ...AGAIN! /me sigh ps. good points z00ey
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Post by Freak on Dec 15, 2003 14:27:49 GMT -5
duke about your statement on the enviorment. "there are no environmental demands on how much co2 a car is allowed produce, " <~~ where did you get that. i didn't know i took my car to get emissions tested because it wasn't neccessary. ohh wait it is. days when you can't have fireplaces going or can't drive between 1 and 4pm to keep down polution.?
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Cin
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Post by Cin on Dec 15, 2003 14:30:37 GMT -5
Most environmental problems are our fault. We created the problem, lest not forget that. If you want to blame someone, blame ourselves.
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Post by Freak on Dec 15, 2003 14:39:14 GMT -5
there are no plans to have free elections yet because they havn't done the steps required. 1) writen a constituion 2) taken over all of their own industrys. they arn't ready yet and there is plans for elections in iraq as soon as 4 years. this is for the sake of getting things taken care of. just like when the us first became a nation if george washington did not step down he could have been president as long as he wanted
and cin the sooner you realize that money makes the world turn the sooner you appreciate some things. money that helped other countries start programs that would otherwise be funded by that countries tax payers. and it would tick you off too if you paid taxes that went to another country where they not only didn't appreciate the help nor did they care for it at all.
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Cin
New Member
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Post by Cin on Dec 15, 2003 14:54:37 GMT -5
"money makes the world turn" So when money didnt even exist, the world just grounded to a halt?
Money makes people greedy, corrupted and just pig ignorant.
Money is the root of all evil.
you dont give just to receive. Remember that
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Post by Freak on Dec 15, 2003 15:05:38 GMT -5
there has always been a form of money. before it was printed it was in the form of the product. nice furr shawl was worth more than a grass one. and if you want to get down to it even animals display the same idea as money.
money is not the root of all evil that is also incorrect. desire is the root of all evil and money is at times the link to getting the desired.
you do not give just to get. bahh you do so. its nice to know that at the very least the effort made into something given is appreciated.
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Cin
New Member
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Post by Cin on Dec 15, 2003 15:09:57 GMT -5
Your efforts being acknowledged is rewarding, but the reward should be the effort itself.
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Post by Duke Tosti on Dec 15, 2003 15:26:50 GMT -5
z00ey, I don't even know where to start, some of what you say is opinion reported as fact, misinformation and some of it completely false. There was a standoff with the USSR of the coast of cuba. The USSR ships carrying the nukes turned around and went home. The shiites did not want free elections, the shiites wanted tribal elections. Where do you get that the US does not want another muslim state? Are you saying that because we do not want or effort to be in vane and watch Iraq become another dictatorship like most other muslim countries that we do not want a muslim country. In the US we seperate religion from politics. We could care less what their religion is, we just don't want to see it fall in the hands of another dictator or suppresionist. And as for doing it the UN's way, they had 10 years to do it their way, they did nothing but make more resolutions which were repeatedly broken. So please enlighten me to what there way was. Was it a slow painful death by papercuts from all the resolutions and lack of real action? The UN is nothing but a self serving organization. The US is the largest contributer of money and resources to the UN. What would the UN be without the US? A group of self-rightous whiners with no money and no power to do anything. its just that most americans don't want to see their own mistakes (so do u) .. without america, UN would be nothing, without america, we wouldn't be travelling space, without america, world war 2 would have gone on forever, withou... in a world without people who think they are better then others, peace would be way more common than ot is nowadays and freak ... I read it in an emission report for Geographic when I did examinations on secondary highschool ... but they also said it was different in different states, so maybe u live in a smoother one ... but anyways, in a broad view (without having real numbers by hand), america has a low percentage of the world population and an, in comparison, extreme high harmfull emmision and for america don't caring what religion a country has, the muslim world is against bush and america ... so even if iraq hates america, they will still leave normally?! don't think so '1) writen a constituion 2) taken over all of their own industrys.' 'they arn't ready yet and there is plans for elections in iraq as soon as 4 years. this is for the sake of getting things taken care of. just like when the us first became a nation if george washington did not step down he could have been president as long as he wanted' in politics there is probably a hand guide stating how to tell the ppl in ur country that a colonized or freed country isn't 'ready' yet, needs more time etc etc, when holland needed to let indonesia go, they told the same, when holland needed to let suriname go, they told the same ... it's so standard, who believes it?! what if every day of those 4 years there is a terrorist self murder attack killing somehwere around 3 ppl ... that would be a huge amount at the end of the 4 years ... even the ppl in america start protesting when their boys die in far away wars (vietnam) so it is well possible that americans discussing in this thread will in one or two years use the arguments we posted here ... history is to learn from, and it always repeats itself it is not my point to tell, america is wrong, I just want to point to the fact that nowone is perfect, bush will never say 'I was wrong', he will keep spoiling lives, the main problem is proud, humans have too much most of the times, americans are ... as always ... a bit above average on this one too (j/k) so no offense to america, only giving my opinion *edit, some things weren't completly clear, changed them
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Post by Freak on Dec 15, 2003 17:10:26 GMT -5
i agree that america has alot to learn about sharing. ie sharing this world. (MINE) and that alot of policies made in the past have not only hurt the United States reputation (the cold war's do as i say or get nuked) but also how people arround the world view us as a people. at the same time waiting arround doing nothing locked in arguments for three years never did any good. the people of other countries see things differently than we do. in a news report interviewing Indonesians most said bush was waging war with islam which is a peaceful religion and a few people said they believe the US made up the world trade center attack in order to wage war again Islam. the news in the country has spun it to that view. the United States is the same. certain things are spun to make people view events differently. and i am sure it is the same in europe that the media shows views that are to their own liking making people like z00ey Fook and duke. your not wrong at all but the media has shaped your view. i think also reading threads like this helps to get the total picture since there are people from all over the world participating. and duke Americans care alot about the enviorment and restrictions are greater than you have read. the higher rates of polution have backstories to them that when those are understood paints a less chaotic picture of how polution is dealt with here. with 300 million people who have a higher percentage of wealth than any other country with the same population it is hard to compare standings at all. the cars that every american loves may be poluting but the fact that without the invention of the automobile america would not be anything today. on a side note its good to see many car makers starting to make cars more efficiant. Germany, America, and Japan have all been developing hybrid cars.
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